Ismail Fayed interview. Part II, Community and Innovation, Q&A with Karima Mansour

Ismail Fayed interview. Part II : Community and Innovation, Q&A with Karima Mansour

 

איסמעיל פאייד מראיין- חלק II.  קהילה וחידושים, שאלות ותשובות עם קארימה מנסור

 

 

זהו חלקו השני של הראיון שקיים איסמעיל פאייד עם קארימה מנסור, שהתפרסם בקהיר בעיתון 'אל מסרי אל יום' (Al Masri Al Youm ) עם תחילת מהפיכת תחריר. קארימה, כנאמר, חזרה משהות באירופה שם הייתה אמורה להעלות עבודה חדשה בסוף פברואר. כמו רבים מהאמנים, ואנשי הרוח במצריים, קארימה ואיסמעיל הפכו פעילים בהפגנות ולאחר נפילתו של מובארק, הם ממשיכים לפעול כדי לקדם ממשל דמוקרטי חילוני.

1299690551.jpgאני תקווה ששיתוף הפעולה שלהם עם 'ריקודיבור', אכן יביאו לשיתופי פעולה בעתיד בין אנשי מחול בישראל ובמצריים. בראייה מפוקחת, יש להניח שלמרות הבעת רצון עקרוני מצדם, בפועל, מדובר בעתיד רחוק, אם וכאשר יחולו שינויים פוליטים מרחיקי לכת במרחב.      א. ברפמן

 

איסמעיל אל פאייד: עם מי מבין בני דורך, את מזדהה אמנותית ואישית, בין אם מדובר במקומיים או בני הקהילה הבינלאומית?

 

קארימה: אני מוצאת שבמילה 'הזדהות' טמונה סכנה משום שבעולם האמנות, אתה עשוי לראות עבודה שמדברת אליך ולחשוב: "כך בדיוק אני מרגיש" אך אין פירושו שאתה רוצה להפיק עבודה זהה. מצד שני, אם אתה משתמש במושג 'מזדהה',  זה עשוי להתפרש בטעות כנסיון להציב את עצמך באותה רמה של אותה יצירה מסוימת או יוצר מסוים ואז אנשים מתחילים לשאול " מי אתה חושב שאתה".

במובן הזה, יש אמנים שאני מעריכה במיוחד- את הגישה שלהם, הנושאים שהם בוחרים. לדוגמא: לויד ניוסון (Lloyd Newson ) –  כוריאוגרף אוסטרלי שחי ועובד בלונדון, שצולל אל מעמקי הנפש  במבט ממוקד. וישנו ג'וזף נאדג' – כוריאוגרף צרפתי ממוצא מזרח אירופאי-  שאת עבודתו אני מעריכה בשל עומקה ובשל הטיפול בפרטיה. אני לא משווה את עצמי לאנשים האלה; אני שואפת להיות כמותם, אבל הם כה שונים ושייכים לדור אחר.

דמות נוספת שאני מעריצה היא אן תרזה דה קירסמאקר (Anna Teresa de Keersmaeker  ) – כוריאוגרפית בלגית ידועה שמייצגת גישה אסתטית שונה לחלוטין- יותר מתמטית- אבל אני מעריצה את האופן בו היא בונה את הלקסיקון שלה, את המוסיקליות בעבודות שלה ואת מה שהביאה לעולם המחול.

האנשים האלה עושים דברים שמרגשים אותי, מנקודת מבטי, הם מציעים דבר מה שלם.  יש להם תפיסה מוצקה, עומק רגשי חזק ואסתטיקה מובהקת- כך שצורה ותוכן נוכחים באותה מידה. כאשר כל המרכיבים הללו נמצאים- יכולה להווצר עבודת אמנות בעלת עוצמה.

אני גם מעריצה מסיבות אחרות את העבודות של וויליאם פורסיית' (William Forsythe  ), (כוריאוגרף אמריקאי שניהל בעבר את בלט פרנקפורט). יש לו דרך משלו לבטא רגישויות אסתטיות, אם כי הפן האמוציונלי לא מודגש באותה מידה. יש בעבודות שלו קווים יפהפיים, אבל הצפייה ברקדנים שלו לא ממש מרגשת אותי.

 עוד מישהו שאני מעריכה מאד, מסיבות אחרות לגמרי  הוא חוויאר לה רוי (Xavier le Roy) , כוריאוגרף יליד צרפת שמתגורר בברלין. אני אוהבת את האופן האנליטי, את הגישה המושגית שלו. כשזה בא ממנו אני מוכנה לקבל את זה, הוא אמין בעיני. הבעיה שמפריעה לי אצל יוצרים שמשתמשים באותה גישה, כאשר אחדים מהם משתמשים בה כמוצא קל.  אין לי בעיה עם מחול מושגי, אבל יש לי בעיה כשמשתמשים בגישה הזו כדי להמנע  ממצבים מסוימים, לערפל ולהשתמש בשפה בלתי נגישה של אנשים שפשוט לא מסוגלים לרקוד. וכמובן, יש את פינה באוש (Pina Bausch ), עוד יוצרת שאני מעריצה ומכבדת במיוחד.

 

אני אוהבת לראות גם סוגות מחול אחרות. אני זוכרת שראיתי בוטו והוכיתי בתדהמה. זה עדיין חקוק עמוק בזכרוני. מדובר ברקדנית בוטו שאילתרה יחד עם רקדנים עכשוויים; רקדנית שמשכה את כל המבטים אליה. היא הייתה כמו חיה, במובן החיובי של המילה… התחושות, הטכניקה והנוכחות שלה היו פשוט מדהימות.  אפשר להזכיר גם מופע שראיתי של הדרווישים המחוללים שנמשך שעות. גם זה היה מהפנט.

 

ש. נראה לך שהיית יכולה לשתף פעולה עם רקדן בוטו?

 

ת. אני לא חושבת שבאופן ישיר. זה סוג מסוים של מחול, שאם אתה לא יפני, אני מאמינה שאתה לא יכול לרקוד בוטו. זהו סוג של מחול שאתה לא יכול לבצע אם לא נולדת לתוך התרבות היפנית. אם אתה לא חלק מהתרבות, זה לא יהיה זה. יש משהו ייחודי שקשור לזיכרון הגוף שהוא מאד ספציפי לגוף היפני ולתרבותו.

אין זה אומר שיוצר אינו יכול להיות מושפע מבוטו, או להשתמש בפן המושגי שלו, ואכן, אמנים רבים כבר עשו את זה.

 

ש. מה בנוגע לבהאראטה נאטיאם, הריקוד ההודי הקלאסי?

 

ת. עוד פחות עם הריקוד ההודי מאשר עם בוטו, מכיוון שהאחרון נשאר מקרה מיוחד. אבל שוב, זה יכול לשמש כמקור להשראה כמו כל סוגת מחול אחרת. אנחנו רואים סוגי מחול כמו ריקודי בטן, מחול סופי ופולקלורי, כל אחד מהם ספציפי. לכל יוצר יש דרך משלו לעבד השפעות או דרכים להביע את מקורות ההשראה שלו.

 

ש. את לא מופיעה כמעט במצריים, במידה שהקהל היה רוצה, מדוע?

 

ת. תמיד שואלים אותי את השאלה הזאת. אני לא רוצה להשמע כמי שמתלוננת, אבל המצב עגום. אני סבורה שזה חייב להשתנות, צריכים לתקן את המחדל. אישית, גם אני לא יודעת בדיוק מה צריך לעשות.

אבל כדי לענות ישירות לשאלתך, מאז 2004, אני לא מצליחה למצוא אולם תאטרון. כל האולמות מופעלים על ידי המדינה ואם העבודה שלך לא מופקת על ידי המדינה לא תוכל להופיע כיוצר עצמאי כמוני. במשך זמן רב הייתי צריכה לבחור אם להופיע בחללים שלא חשתי בהם בנוח או שהייתי צריכה להתפשר או לבחור שלא להופיע.

עכשיו, כשהגיע הזמן לשנוי, אני נפתחת מעט יותר. אולי המקום לא צריך להיות בתאטרון מצויד היטב, מאחר והאולמות שבאים בחשבון סובלים מתנאים טכניים בלתי מספקים. עדיין נותרה הבעיה של אמנים שצריכים לבחור איפה להופיע. בחירת המקום צריכה להיות בחירה אמנותית, לא סיטואציה כפויה.

זה יהיה רק הוגן שלאותם אנשים שהקדישו וזמן, נסיון וידע במדינה הזו ומייצרים אמנות ברמה גבוהה שזוכה להערכה מחוץ למצריים, תנתן הזדמנות להתפתח ולקבל תמיכה כדי שיוכלו לחלוק את פרי עבודתם עם האחרים. זה יהיה מטופש לא לנצל את האמנים המצריים.

 מדוע זה כך? איזה אינטרס זה משרת? זו שאלה רצינית שאני מוסיפה לשאול. הייתי רוצה לשמוע כבר מישהו שיספק תשובה. יש פה הרבה כישרונות והרבה מהיכולות יורדות לטמיון.

אני מנסה להופיע במצריים. יש לי עבודה חדשה ואני מקווה שאוכל להציג אותה במצרים עוד השנה. החלופה היא להופיע בחלל שלא מצויד כהלכה מבחינה טכנית, ציוד סאונד ריצפה וכו'. אתה מנסה להתאים את העבודה למקום ומקווה שאנשים יבינו את האילוצים בהם אתה עובד, או להתעסק עם מפלצות עצמאיות ששולטים ומפעילים את האולמות בהתאם לאינטרסים, לאג'נדה שלהם, בכפוף לשורת אינטרסים אישיים.

המצב אינו חופשי ופתוח כפי שהיה ראוי ואנחנו נאלצים לפעול בנסיבות הקיימות. אבל כל זאת לא ירתיע אותי. אני ממשיכה ליצור עבודות כוריאוגרפיות, אני ממשיכה ללמד בסדנאות ובשיעורים. הפעילויות שלי לא נפסקו ולא ייפסקו.

 זה טפשי כמו שאמרתי, שלא לנצל את הכוחות היצירתיים, הרי יכלו להשתמש בנו בדרכים רבות ויכולנו להגיע להישגים. יש כאן עושר שלא מנוצל.

 

ש. אילו שינויים היית מציעה, לאור הערכת מצב המחול העכשווי במצריים?

 

ת. ראשית לכל- להחזיק מעמד. אדם צריך להמשיך את מה שהוא עושה בעודו שומר על מידה של אתיקה, שיקול דעת, כל עוד הוא נותר נאמן לעצמו. בתחום האמנויות, אם אין תנאים הולמים להתפתח, נוצר חלל פתוח שמזמן כניסת שרלטנים.

נדמה כי חל תהליך שיטתי של הריסת הסצינה האמנותית. אל לנו להאשים רק את השיטה, זו גם אחריות שלנו, האמנים עצמם להודות במה אנחנו באמת מבינים ובמה לא. עלינו לחלוק את הידע שלנו עם אחרים ככל הניתן. אנחנו חייבים לחפש אחר פתרונות יצירתיים, מבלי לוותר על איכות העבודה.

סצינת המחול העכשווי במצריים היא מצומצמת ביותר, ויש בה אנשים שבאים מרקע שונה. היא מאופיינת על ידי אינדיוידואליות ויש בה רגישות רבה וחוסר אמון הדדי, שזה שטות כי אנחנו בסך הכל כמו משפחה גדולה. אין פירושו שאנחנו צריכים לאהוב זה את זה, אבל  צריך שיהיה הערכה הדדית  ותמיכה, משום שבסופו של יום, כולנו בסירה אחת. כשנפעל יחד נהייה חזקים יותר ואולי אז ישמעו את קולנו. כשאתה לבד, יכולתך מוגבלת בהרבה.

עלינו לבסס קהילה המושתת על ערכי מוסר וכיבוד, מקום בו אנשים יוכלו ללמוד אחד מרעהו, לקבל תמיכה, לחלוק במקורות ורעיונות כדי לחזק את האיכות האמנותית.  בהקשר שלנו, זה יכול לקרות וחייב לקרות. מפעם לפעם זה קורה, אבל צריך לחזק את זה הרבה יותר ומתוך שכנוע עמוק.         

 

 

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